A Top 20 USA Business & Marketing Podcast

This episode finishes the eSports Series on The Radcast. Ryan and Reiley dissect each episode in the series and answer the ominous question... so what's next?

Links for Ep 55: ft. Magnus Leppaniemi

Links for Ep 56: ft. Charles Conry

Links for Ep 57: ft. Shaon Berry

Links for Ep 58: ft. Tyler Endres

Links for Ep 60: ft. Itamar Benedy 

Links for Ep 61: ft. Matt Arden

Links for Ep 63: ft. Joe Iaquinto


Ryan Alford[00:00:07] Hey guys, what's up? It's Ryan Alford and Reiley Clarke. Welcome to the latest episode of the Radcast. It's a summery day here for us. We will be summarizing the ESports series, which we've just wound down and  I'm feeling good about it. 

Reiley Clarke [00:00:30] Yeah, I feel the whole series went well. And there were a lot of different types of guests that we had. We had players, we had people who were the founder of Esports in North America. And then we had people that were in charge of a lot of end-game advertisements. So I think we hit as many tips of the iceberg of the ecosystem as we could have. 

Ryan Alford [00:00:58] Exactly. It's been an eye-opener for me, just the scale and scope of eSports and what's happening, obviously separating video gaming as a whole with the competitive side, which is what makes up eSports, and finding that fine line for me was important. And then from a marketing perspective, just like during the series, some contracts got close, like Verizon and others getting involved or even more involved than they already were. So understanding just the impact that you're going to see with brands and marketing in the space over the next five to 10 years. I think we are literally as we talked about some of our guests, it's not a new thing. I mean, they've been playing tournaments for 15 years, probably longer, and someone's going to go; They've been playing for nineteen points four years. Not only that, but they're playing for several years. This isn't new.  But the adoption rate, the scale, the awareness with brands, the technologies, all of those things are coming full tilt right now. And then as we talk with our guests about everything and had gas poured on the fire with covid and being at home and so much more gaming happening, maybe less in-person competitive tournaments. But I think you're just seeing more and more people, brands,  and entities coming to the space. 

Reiley Clarke [00:02:30] Yeah, well, I think even with that, I know we don't like talking about covid necessarily in the sense of all the negativity that it's brought. But I think if anything, especially in the eSports space, everyone and all the guests have been saying, it accelerated all of the things they have been working on. And so things they had been planning for the next two to five years, had to happen in like three months. But I think everything happened a lot. I think they all had surprising success, though. It's not like there was a catastrophic hit to the eSports base. If anything, I mean, to your point, it grew even more. 

Ryan Alford [00:03:04] Exactly. So hopefully you fold along. If you've listened to each episode, this will be the summary of some of our guests and some of the key takeaways. If you're listening for the first time, take some time in your workout or whatever and however you listen to the podcast, you're wanting to just start to unpeel everything that there is in eSports. I do think we did an admirable job of covering a lot of games, but at the same time, I think we could do a year-long; 

Reiley Clarke [00:03:38] Oh, we were like, oh, my gosh, we can just keep going and going and going. And yeah we might. 

Ryan Alford [00:03:46] We'll probably come back around to it.  So you want to start down our list of guests. 

Reiley Clarke [00:03:52] Yeah. We'll go from the top. So we'll start with Magnus. He was our first guest in this series that was episode 55 and he works; I feel like I'm always going to say their company name wrong, but I hope I'm saying that right. They want to be the place that you go to bet on games, in-game betting, League legends, those kinds of games. And then again, just like what we were talking about earlier with the covid stuff, traditional sports that people want to bet on. And a lot more people started transitioning into games they knew. This was an interesting point that he had made because you already knew how basketball works, how football works, or whatever. So when you're transitioning to that kind of betting, you already know what you're doing. 

Ryan Alford [00:04:41] My biggest takeaway from this is we have a lot of degenerate gamblers in the world and they need yet another place to gamble. Will you get that side of it done? In all seriousness, it's fascinating just to think you go from the space. Twitch, in the last ten years, has brought about watching other people play games, whether competitive league tournaments or just actual gameplay itself. And now we've reached this point where people are betting on who's going to win these tournaments or matches. And it's fascinating to me the dynamics because if you think about how complex it is for someone watching American football the first time. We take it for granted because we were watching it our whole lives, growing up as America's number one football sport. But it's pretty complex playing offense, defense, all the rules, all those things for someone not watching eSports and the number of different games and the level of expertise needed to kind of understand what's happening and betting on that gameplay is fascinating to me. And just what it takes for them to set the odds and set everything that goes into it, it is crazy,  but it's not surprising with how far everything else has come along that we're at this stage. 

Reiley Clarke [00:06:05]  I agree. I think he made another interesting point in his episode when he was talking about the people that bet on nontraditional games like the Counterstrike Objective or League of Legends. They're not the kind of people that are betting on traditional games. Which I thought was, and I don't know why I thought that was so interesting to me. 

Ryan Alford [00:06:28] I think you have the people that know these games, that have played these games and may not be competing competitively. This is another way for them to keep the competitiveness going and stay involved in it. And they understand the game. And the average person that plays Counter-Strike isn't playing NBA 2k.  And I think no different then. I don't watch soccer. I'm a football fan. I'd be like, I'm not into that.  

Reiley Clarke [00:07:01] Each one has their own. Every person has their own thing. 

Ryan Alford [00:07:04] And  Magnus was great. He was a great guest really and he gave good insight. And you can look inside each episode to find some links and different things. But we'll put in the show notes for this. It will remind us to get some links to every guest about their profile. 

Reiley Clarke [00:07:33]  I'll break it down in the episode notes. So we'll just move along. Charles Conroy was in episode fifty-six. He was one of our founding fathers of eSports in America, which is I don't know why this makes me just like, you want to put your hand over your heart, 

Ryan Alford [00:07:51] Can we produce this episode and add some patriotic music? 

Reiley Clarke [00:07:54] I just want to have a little flag waving in the wind with this part. Charles is awesome, his episode was very, very full because he talked about the complexity and the beginning of that league with Jason Lake and everything and then how it went into the Dallas Cowboys. And then he went into all the things that he works now, with The Switch, which is the world's largest transmission broadcaster. 

Ryan Alford [00:08:24] Yes, they're helping. Charles is one of the business development sales VPs for The Switch. They help with the transmission of all of these games. So you think about linear TV traditionally, how it gets there and all that they're digitizing, all that I'm summarizing for all of us nascent digital video watchers. But they essentially help it get to wherever it's going to go, whatever that feed is, they are feeding that one transmission of it's being recorded here or videoed here. They're getting it everywhere else digitally, I'm sure. Charles Wilson, this is someone that's dumbing it down. I think that is the most simple way to discuss that. But there they are, the market leader in helping all of nearly all of the pro leagues with doing this. And, some of that plays into not necessarily using their service. But back to when we get to Matt's episode with the NBA, and some of the transmission with NBA 2k. And obviously, it's going on there, but I'm not saying The Switch is involved with that because no one divulged that to us. But it's the similar type of technology that's going on that's making that happen with the broadcast of multiple signals from multiple places and kind of getting them all boil down to where they need to go. Yeah, Charles was great. 

Reiley Clarke [00:09:50] Well, I do want to say before we move on from Charles, there's one more thing I wanted to say about him because I think this is when we started to get into Twitch was his episode, because another point I felt like he made was just Twitch's involvement in what's the word I'm looking for? Just like illuminating, I guess, like how intense eSports is, because it forced so much more outside money to come into eSports, because they realized, oh, my gosh, Twitch, OK, 

Ryan Alford [00:10:21]  How many eyeballs were on. 

Reiley Clarke [00:10:22]  I think and I will get into the rest of them later, but it starts to shift how you're targeting your advertisement. 

Ryan Alford [00:10:29] Yeah, exactly. I think as much as we talked about capability and everything, he talked a lot about complexity. What it did for me was put into context the power and the legitimacy that these club/ teams/ gaming leagues have. And just the pop culture nature of each player having huge Instagram followings, the league itself having Instagram followings, and the personality within them, all of those dynamics. And, no different than probably any NBA team the Miami Heat, if you're a huge Heat fan, you've got 14 players on the team, whatever that roaster looks like. And everyone has their following, but they're all underneath the Miami Heat. But within the leagues, there are multiple games, multiple players, multiple sponsors. There's just as much complexity there as any other thing in kind of wrapping your head around that ecosystem. It is huge. And Charles kind of put a fine point with that. And the power with the Dallas Cowboys purchasing their league and group, just again, how mainstream it is and how the big players are recognizing the power that these groups hold. 

Reiley Clarke [00:11:56] We didn't necessarily talk about this in the Charles episode, but this is just a side note, I guess, for you and I. Do you feel like more teams are going to start doing that? 

Ryan Alford [00:12:04] It makes sense for the Dallas Cowboys. They're America's team. 

Reiley Clarke [00:12:09] And you think Dallas Cowboys is the Americans America's team? 

Ryan Alford [00:12:13] That's their nickname, America's team. It's literally the largest NFL franchise in the country. 

Reiley Clarke [00:12:20] I thought the Patriots were the largest franchise and maybe 

Ryan Alford [00:12:24]  They have won more than the Patriots. But winning doesn't necessarily translate to all the fans. And where the Dallas Cowboys were always on TV back in the 70s, 80s. And so they have a lot of chemistry. They became known as America's team because the kids and everybody that didn't have a team in their market, became the national team, so to speak, like the most well-known broad team. Like if you're in Greenville, South Carolina, you may have before obviously, if you're NFL so huge now. But 30, 40 years ago, you may have known and heard of players on the Dallas Cowboys, but the Oakland Raiders, you had no idea because they weren't in your media market. And the Dallas Cowboys, though, would get shown in your media market as the default team before the Atlanta Falcons and the Dallas Cowboys and all that. Maybe not the Falcons, but at least the Carolina Panthers. That franchise is only like 20 years old and maybe a little older than that, but not much. OK, so again, it's not surprising that the Dallas Cowboys bought it, whether or not the Green Bay Patriots are going to buy or be involved, maybe it could make sense. I can see Verizon is partnering with these big leagues and big teams and being the overall 5G carrier for certain teams. And I can see Verizon having their team like in the next five years. I wouldn't be surprised if it's on their roadmap. Does it make definitive sense that they're going to do it? Maybe not because they might want a broader cover and just around it. But I could see it happening. I could see any large brand or entity getting involved in owning their own leagues. 

Reiley Clarke [00:14:20]  Not just necessarily traditional sports taking on their own. OK, I see that. I could see that too. 

Ryan Alford [00:14:27] Especially when the technology kind of lineup with Verizon, makes so much sense. You've got the internet and the bandwidth that it takes. And no, people aren't necessarily going to be playing eSports over there, 5G connection, we're probably not quite there with the latency and ping and everything that goes into the streaming, you still need like land to make that happen. But we're inching closer. And then you do have all of the other content that goes along with it. The live streaming, the twitch aspect, the stuff that you would use the alternative uses for content and sharing, and all those things that you would use your phone, whether it's your friend watching and filming your video and he's sending it off or all the other things where content is being distributed, having that 5G connection and that in that authority makes absolute sense for someone like a Verizon. And again, not getting down to maintain the tier. I know Summarizer Charles over my phone.  Charles opened my eyes to the leverage points, the opportunities, and just the overall scope of the teams and leagues. 

Reiley Clarke [00:15:38] I remember after the first couple of episodes, we were definitely like, oh wow this is way much bigger than we even gave it full credit for.  We'll move right along here. So Chamas next, episode fifty-seven. I feel like the biggest thing I felt like he was so passionate about is just making sure everyone had an opportunity in eSports to be involved in eSports. But it wasn't just necessarily being a gamer, just any sports. 

Ryan Alford [00:16:10] So Sean Berry, was he third or second? He was third. Sean Barry has Arenas and opened up some technology arenas where both the gaming aspect kind of combining both the opportunities to be a space where gaming happens, but also opening up opportunities for the broader ecosystem of gaming and getting kids involved with the possibilities of, hey how could you get involved with these sports? It might be through coding or an avenue that's not necessarily as the player, but it started through those arenas that were unfortunately in a hiatus as he was just getting off the ground. 

Reiley Clarke [00:16:55]  I will link this to his match on eSports as well as his company. But I think a lot of the stuff he was doing, just making sure anyone, because I think his point, too, was there are more females in this than males. He was sharing all these statistics and we have a lot of those on that episode linked there. But I'll link him again. 

Ryan Alford [00:17:19] And I also think it's timely and Sean wasn't harping on it, but the minority aspect, the underserved aspect of minorities, while they are over-index in playing among younger kids and stuff and the opportunity to kind of open up those channels. And I know that he's been sponsoring games in other ways for this to happen while he hopefully is reopening soon. Sean, I hope you are. I don't know what the timing is for all of those things, but shining a light on the minority opportunity was important. And I think it's something that we can all get behind if you think about the underserved potential of this market. 

Reiley Clarke [00:18:09] Absolutely. I have all the respect in the world for him. He's given back to the community, over and over again. 

Ryan Alford [00:18:19] Your pit football team's going to have some trouble this year. I saw him playing running back at Pittsburgh. And so we'll see how they figure in the SCC this year. Hopefully, they don't run into Clemson again in the championship game.


Reiley Clarke [00:18:37] I can't talk about that. I'm a big girl. Moving along, Tyler episode fifty-eight, Tyler Andre's, he has an eSports Arena. What's a good word? I feel like he was the idea behind this. He and his group of friends, Halo2 guys, and we're coming in and realizing you can create a space and design an arena fit for the community that gamers were lacking. 

Ryan Alford [00:19:08] Yeah, he's got several arenas throughout the country, started in California, one in Las Vegas, actually one, and then signed the kind of Wal-Mart agreement where they took that concept and kind of scaled it down into Wal-Mart. So it is not a franchise yet, but more of a licensing agreement where they own most of the locations or have a license agreement with Wal-Mart too, and the first, as I understood it, the first arenas in the country for eSports. 

Reiley Clarke [00:19:41] That's how I understood it as well. 

Ryan Alford [00:19:43] I remember this episode, all I can think about is the hockey. Tyler had hockey gear in the background. And he brought out a hockey jersey that was at Targeter Nose as a brand I can't remember, but we'll look back.


Reiley Clarke [00:20:01] Yeah, that was a fun episode. I liked how he designed the space. But I like the point of using, not that he's like taking advantage of Wal-Mart. I think it's brilliant though, he took that risk even though I remember he was like oil and water to me like no way was going to work. 

Ryan Alford [00:20:17] But you have a captive audience. You have moms shopping around. You have kids and even Twenty five-year-olds walking around shopping. Oh, I can sit here and game for 30 minutes or whatever.

 Reiley Clarke [00:20:28] And he even made the point to like Wal-Mart's location just finished the rest of it. There is free parking. There's normally a Starbucks or something in a Wal-Mart or a subway whatever. You can just chill and hang out and then you can play video games. I mean, gosh, I wish there was one in Greenville. Tyler gets on it.  

Ryan Alford[00:20:45] I was at Walmart the other day and Nicole was back to school shopping. . I was like disappearing down a few different aisles. And I was like I ran out of stuff. And I'm like, I would go on and got on some call of duty or something. Let's get on it Wal-Mart. We need every location with a gaming center and an eSports arena. 

Reiley Clarke [00:21:06] These sports arenas need to come this way. 

Ryan Alford [00:21:08] But it’s a huge community. Again, back to how many big brands have we talked about so far? Wal-Mart, Verizon, talked about the Dallas Cowboys. Brands are all over this.  The secret's out. It's been out. Look, you have a growing demographic of players that are not consuming television. They're not consuming traditional terrestrial radio. 

Reiley Clarke [00:21:40]  That's such an important point. 

Ryan Alford [00:21:40] If you want to get in front of this audience, the future of America, the future business owners, leaders and all that, if you want to have your brand in front of them, you've got to go to where they are and where they are is playing video games. And it's just reality. And the brands that are getting behind this are going to win and the ones that don't are going to get left behind. Cheers to you, Walmart. 

Reiley Clarke [00:22:04] I visited  Itamar Benedy. He was our CEO and founder of Anzu Io and this was our in-game advertising group. And this to me was honestly such a cool episode because I loved how he described what they do. So taking branded content and making it a part of the game, it's like when you're playing Fortnite or Apex and they have those billboards and then you see an advertisement for the MasterCard, the new MasterCard debit card, or whatever it is. That's all stuff that they do. And that's just smart advertising. And to your point, my generation, we thought watching TV was watching Netflix or watching what I mean, or we're playing video games. So it's just we're on our phone. So it's just like anything else. I feel like you have to change how you're targeting your audience. 

Ryan Alford [00:23:06] Yeah.  When I was playing, I don't remember when it was, it might have been at the arcade or I don't date myself too much here, but either the arcade or playing a game once I remember literally, I think it was like do it right or something to do or die or like a skateboarding game. And I go skating around the town. And I remember going, I guess I was just meant to be in advertising and marketing because I don't know how old I was. But I remember thinking I'm surprised there's not a  real billboard because they had made up companies, like always Acme Company, whatever. So it was always a matter of time because these locations were there. Oh, now they're synchronizing within it. You've got the platform, you have programmatic advertising for anyone listening. That is essentially any of the ads that you see on the Internet, the display ads, most of them are bought programmatically now, which is just a way of automating the real-time action and the cost of those ads. And we'll have a course on programmatic another time. But the point being, they are, and this is Anzu that I am saying that, right? Again, links will be in a lot of terminologies this year that need linking, we will do it. Again, they are bringing that programmatic opportunity within the game experiences both mobile and console gaming and PC gaming, I'm sure eventually. And they are selling some big deals and it is only going to grow. You're going to see a more organic blending of brands and content within these gaming platforms. Think about all the avenues within them, because you've got all these battle royal games and the fighting games and the racing games. And you can figure in your head how that fits. But think about all the other content that comes with the games and places where these brands get involved, the prerelease videos, the pregame. And like I think of the Madden thing, you do training camp and you do these things like you're becoming the player. And, yes, it's all part of the game. But there are just so many different places where brands might be naturally interjected. And you're going to see companies like Itamar’s bringing in that advertising opportunity in a scalable way for companies. 

Reiley Clarke [00:25:28] I think one of the biggest things I took away from that was that larger brands have to adapt to the influence that's coming from this younger audience. And so to that point, if you're a player or whatever and Adidas is your sponsor versus Nike, you might be a little bit more biased and real. Depending on what you're doing in the game, it's going to change, like what you're doing in life to a degree. 

Ryan Alford [00:25:53] And so this one was probably the most down the center of the marketing opportunity for medium-sized brands to kind of get there and to get themselves into the game, literally. 

Reiley Clarke [00:26:07] And then we had Episode 61. Matt Ardern in this episode was I mean, gosh, all these episodes are really good, but this episode was very well done. There was a lot covered in this episode as far as what the NBA 2k league is working on currently. And just it was comical to hear, just like the transition they had from going in office to them producing on couches and distributing all those packages, but then somehow managing every week they were doing what they were supposed to be doing. And it was just like, again, a surprise success.


Ryan Alford [00:26:44] So Matt oversees content and media for NBA 2k league. If you watch ESPN at all, ESPN 2,  they are on almost every  Tuesday night hosted. And one of the play by play is my good friend Scott Cole. Scott, if you're listening to the shout-out to you. The interesting thing here, it was on multiple levels. One, getting a very specific look into one specific game and the dynamics of what it's taken. You had the aspect that Matt talked about literally because they were thinking about doing this type of broadcast and doing what they were doing remotely and doing all of that in like a two to a three-year window. And eventually turned into a two-week window. 

Reiley Clarke [00:27:34] I was about to say that it was like two or three years to do but took two to three weeks. 

Ryan Alford [00:27:38] Being in media and production for a long time, it's hard for anyone if you're not into it, anyone knows it's got to be complex and you can kind of go, yeah, that was probably hard. You have no idea what it takes and how complex and how amazing it was that they were able to turn that around and make all that happen. And it's been seamless because I've watched the broadcast like there are no blips, everything feels like it was produced weeks ago and they got to tinker with it. All that much less a quasi-live broadcast of leagues and games going on from multiple locations. It was a fantastic job for him and his team. But just the dynamic nature of what they've pulled off is quite fascinating. 

Reiley Clarke [00:28:24] Oh, I agree. And I just love the huge storyteller. And you could tell he was a storyteller. I loved listening to just everything that he and his team are working on and just how they're getting into the heart of creating the storyline.  I feel like some people were wanting the episodes and I’m like; How did you do this story?  I know we've been talking about maybe doing more eSports things and that would be something to come back to, I think. 

Ryan Alford [00:28:54] But their whole YouTube series, again, the impact and what they've been doing to make that happen with covid going on, the remote broadcasting and to tell those stories and then to feel so seamless with using smartphone footage and other footage. Matt and I tangled a little bit on how beautiful the content necessarily has to be, that they've got to you would have no idea most of that. And that's kudos to their team for making it look that way. But the ability to tell those stories, to bring the players to life, to do all of that, all sponsored by AT&T. Matt, I'll give you another drop for AT&T on that one. We gave Verizon some love. We're not sponsored by either one yet, so we'll give them both some love. So AT&T helping them to bring that YouTube series to life. And again, even if you have no other interest in this or any of the content or you're just not into eSports, go watch some of those episodes and watch the passion and everything they put in to bring the players and are putting in to win these leagues, to win the games. And they all have families that they're all traveling, they're all doing it with covid and other things. So it's a great story no matter what your interest levels are. 

Reiley Clarke [00:30:14] Oh, I agree. And it's exciting. Yeah. You can't watch any of the videos about a tournament or anything like that and not feel a sense of like, yes,  I'm going to root for you or whatever it's just like it's like an exciting thing, which I guess leads us to our last guy. Yeah. Joseph I Quinto, also known as Fatal Strike Episode 63. And Joe was our guy who was 31 times local and regional champion, three-time coaching managing champion as well. Yeah, super-smart guy. 

Ryan Alford [00:30:53] Really smart, really good. Like sometimes we have guests and luckily none of them are on the eSports series. But just occasionally you'll have guests where you have to draw it out of them. Joe's a natural like he's been a commentator, natural storyteller. Naturally knows how to talk about the topics and kind of relay that in a meaningful way. And it was fascinating just to hear the player's perspective. Joe's been there long and seen the front end of it having played for 12, 14 years, longer than that but on the pro side of things and hearing his story from childhood to professional to now commentator, manager, was an interesting dynamic when you kind of close off the series. We talked about all these business things and the leagues and the games and the sponsors and the advertising. And then to get the player perspective was really great, right? 

Reiley Clarke [00:31:57] I agree. I'll link all his stuff to his twitch account and everything that you can live stream. And this is where you also just kind of wish you could just go out and do this. You can be his bearded gamer. 

Ryan Alford [00:32:11] He'll play rocket league. That's about all I think I could play with that and some Madden. But these Gears of War, which he's won numerous tournaments and managed national champions and been involved with the best of the best of the world. I can't even wrap my head around it. But I'm just thinking back to my days and we talked about a sort of streetfighter and a match, but I’ll just be mashing buttons, hoping for certain things. And these guys would be like knocking. 

Reiley Clarke [00:32:39] They know exactly what to do. They change the controller settings so they can do it. They know they like it. All that stuff. You like what's happening. 

Ryan Alford [00:32:46] But Joe, fatal strike. We're still working on my gamer name. I don't know what it is. 

Reiley Clarke. [00:32:52] Oh yeah. No, I need it. It's not what we said last night. 

Ryan Alford [00:32:55] It was just to keep the E from appearing on our episode. We will not say since we have not said any curse words in this episode. I know and naturally, we will keep the E off I guess. We'll keep the E since we have not. 

Reiley Clarke [00:33:05] But keep the office up. 

Ryan Alford [00:33:07] We can call it backslap.


Reiley Clarke [00:33:12] There you go. I'll think about it. I'll think about it for you as your brand manager, right? But OK, but where do you see this all going as we're all finishing out the series and everything?. Like where did your head go? 

Ryan Alford [00:33:32]  I asked every guest if my kids would be able to make a career out of this. And so what I think is going to happen is you're going to see I think colleges and universities are going to have whether it's programs or leagues or things, I think those exist now. I think they'll become more mainstream. I think you're going to see potentially even in grade school some adoption or realization that these are legitimate, that the video games aren't just wasting time.  It's been part of the culture for kids for I mean, I was doing it when I was a kid and that was a long, long time ago. But it's not that it's new. And that's why I don't want to frame this is like, well, yeah, they're not doing that. 

Reiley Clarke [00:34:22]  But I think what it has grown into is new though. I like this concept of what it has become is different because it's bringing in what's traditionally been an in-person sport, a one-on-one kind of game aspect to virtual. 

Ryan Alford [00:34:39] And I mean and I think you're going to see we're just scratching the surface for whatever mainstream like again, back to the schools, back to the arenas. Back to Wal-Mart's. Back to the intersection of Main Stream with the eSports and gaming in general.  I think we are just scratching the surface for where all that's going in, the legitimization of it and the reality it comes back to, bring it full circle back to the marketing. You have to have your brand and your message and what you stand for in front of customers. It's about reach and frequency,  and the reality is the places with which that's happening,  I don't think television is completely dead because we still have a lot of TV being watched and there's still an audience for it. So I'm not, overstating that, but the 12-year-old to thirty, twelve to twenty-eight, these guys are not watching television, they are not listening to mainstream radio. Their eyeballs are elsewhere.  And a large percentage of them, a very affluent percentage of them, are into gaming and eSports and other things. And so from a marketing perspective, brands and businesses will no longer be able to ignore this as a channel with which they need to be thinking about and learning how to get involved organically and not a forced fake their way through it. Or let me throw up our logo at a local event. It's got to be more than that, as a lot of our guests said. 

Reiley Clarke [00:36:32] I was about to say, almost every guest said, we'll keep it, we'll keep it a no. But there was a word that was explicitly used. Yeah, but like just having like they will they can sense out if you're not being honest with them and if you're doing it for the wrong reasons and everyone was saying you have to come in organically, you have to come in with a purpose, that's for who you're trying to sell it to or whatever, Whomever you're trying to engage with. Yeah. It has to be beneficial to them. It can't be your benefit; it can't be your benefit. You have to come in there with a completely different mindset. 

Ryan Alford [00:37:10] I really want to thank all of our guests that we had during this series. Again, it won't be the last we're going to stay connected. So I hope you enjoyed this series. Lots to take away. We're going to have links to everything. We'll continue to post. We've got a ton of content from all of these things. So, again, follow along at the Radcast.com, follow along at the.rad.cast on Instagram and on Facebook. You can get all the links to our content, everything else. Any final word, Reiley? 

Reiley Clarke [00:37:38] No, I think that's it. Great. Thanks for watching us live, by the way.

Ryan Alford [00:37:43] Yeah, I had a few people on the live broadcast. Hopefully, you heard us. We boomed enough, but yeah. Thank you so much for continuing to listen. We appreciate all of you and we'll see you next time.